Angus Parker [00:00:00]:

I hate this question.

Jay Clouse [00:00:01]:

Because it's really hard?

Angus Parker [00:00:02]:

Yeah. Yeah. No. It is. It it it genuinely is.

Jay Clouse [00:00:05]:

That's Angus Parker, the general manager for Ali Abdaal. He's the guy building out the dream team behind Ali's YouTube empire that generated around a 120,000,000 views and over $5,000,000 in 2023 alone. This episode is all about one of the most important but least talked about topics in the YouTube space, hiring. And Angus is the perfect guy to teach us about it.

Angus Parker [00:00:28]:

There was 1 person before me, and now we are basically a core team of 12, supplemented by maybe 10 to 20 freelancer contractors.

Jay Clouse [00:00:35]:

Today, you'll learn how you need to think about hiring.

Angus Parker [00:00:38]:

I think the obvious thing is you can't hang down the team at all, and even if you do, Is.

Jay Clouse [00:00:43]:

What positions you should hire first?

Angus Parker [00:00:45]:

I see a lot of creators go down the route of I'll hire a scriptwriter and a video editor and a thumbnail designer and a the issue with that For me is

Jay Clouse [00:00:53]:

Mistakes that you need to avoid.

Angus Parker [00:00:55]:

One of the mistakes we made initially was relying too much on the traditional approach of

Jay Clouse [00:00:59]:

And a hot take that some people might not like.

Angus Parker [00:01:02]:

I think incentives are never truly aligned when and work together.

Jay Clouse [00:01:12]:

If I'm a creator watching this, what would you say is your, you know, next step or Overall advice for me to think about my next steps with hiring or building a team or even deciding if I should.

Angus Parker [00:01:25]:

I think the obvious thing if you're counting down the team at all, and even if you do, is literally mapping out your system And what it currently looks like. What is your process of production currently look like? And as a percentage, where are you currently investing your time? Like, what does that look like, and are you happy with How about divided? I think it's very easy in this creative space, in this modern world, I guess, to just operate at 300 x speed and not actually stop and think, what does my current system look like? And where are the bottlenecks? Where am I currently spending my time? I don't want to be spending my time. And so combining sort of that with the traditional kind of Matrix of what do you love doing, what do you like doing but don't wanna be doing, what do you don't like doing and don't wanna be doing like, that kind of division as well. Combining those 2 things, I think, would allow you to get visibility on where you need to hire, and then it's a case of Pulling the trigger and and trying to hire someone. If you can, you can sit across multiple different seats so you can start building up that kind of generalist person who potentially then could become more of That right hand man, that COO, sort of person who could then take on management responsibilities, which are currently holding holding you back and therefore holding the channel back.

Jay Clouse [00:02:42]:

How big was the team when you joined?

Angus Parker [00:02:44]:

There was 1 person before me, a remote editor. So I was the 1st sort of in person employee. So we have expanded from, yeah, 2 or 3, all the way up to 19 at one point, and now we are we are at, 12 full time plus Ali, so 13, team of Team of 13. Beneath me, we have a fairly flat structure that's broadly split into 2 different areas. We have the content team and the commercial team. On the content side of things, we have a YouTube producer, a podcast producer, someone managing the book. We have someone managing the website. We have someone managing socials, And we have our sort of editing squad.

Angus Parker [00:03:18]:

And then the commercial side of the team, which is our sort of courses. At the moment, that's a team of 3. We have a head of marketing, a head of products, and a head of, customer success, which essentially sort of product delivery. So that's like the core team of 12, but we then have probably between 10 and 20, depending on the time of year, freelancers and contractors that we Rely on beneath those that core team, who are pulled in to help with, as I said, like, product delivery on the customer success side of things. Or on the content side, I think it's mainly editors. So we have 5 or 6 freelance editors doing shorts, and then 1 or 2, freelance is helping out with Ali's main channel as well. So that's kind of the core the the main structure. So it's basically a core team of 12 supplemented by maybe 10 to 20 freelancers and contractors.

Jay Clouse [00:04:01]:

I wanna go back to that time when it was you and Ollie and a a freelance editor. What did it feel like then. Like, what was your experience? What were your expectations even when you joined the team at that time?

Angus Parker [00:04:13]:

Yeah. When when I joined the team, I joined off the back of a cold email just helping To help with research, essentially. So 1st couple of months, it was essentially just contributing towards videos. It was just before the pandemic hit. But it it it felt very much like A startup. I mean, it still does to a certain extent, but it it didn't necessarily feel like it was I was gonna say, like, a a a real job per se, but, like, it it didn't it didn't have that kind of same vibe to it, but it was always fun. There was no sort of formal structure to things because it didn't didn't necessarily need it. We certainly I wore multiple hats, you know, started as a researcher and writer, then learned how to edit, did editing, then kind of ended up sort of, I guess, producing the channel because I was still working as a doctor at that point, so I was doing to all the admin behind the channel as well.

Angus Parker [00:04:59]:

And we've retained some of that vibe, but, obviously, yeah, as we've grown, there needs to be a bit more structure imposed. But At that point, at the start, it was very much like a like a startup, and we were kind of at the at the start of something that could potentially grow into something far bigger. Do you

Jay Clouse [00:05:12]:

remember how big the channel was at that time?

Angus Parker [00:05:14]:

Yes. It just passed 500,000 subscribers. I think 520,000 when I joined.

Jay Clouse [00:05:20]:

Wow. So he was still flying mostly solo up to 500,000 subs? Pretty much.

Angus Parker [00:05:27]:

Yeah. So he hired his first, like, because, yeah, when the editor, when I joined, was full time, and he hired him in the October before, so about 3 months prior. So he was more or less solo up until around 400, 4 50 subs.

Jay Clouse [00:05:39]:

I appreciate all this context because I think this is helpful to anchor people who are watching this to to compare where they are now with where things were then. That is a more mature channel than I would have expected before, like, the start of of hiring. You know, when you guys were having conversations, like, how How stretched

Angus Parker [00:05:58]:

do you think

Jay Clouse [00:05:59]:

Ollie felt at the time? Did it feel like, oh, man, I really need a number 2, or was it, like, I need a writer? You know?

Angus Parker [00:06:05]:

I think it was less that he felt stretched and more that he didn't realize that he needed to outsource. And I think if if you asked him now, Would he outsource earlier and hire a team early? He would definitely say yes. I think his kind of turning point was he he often tells this story when when he was leaving the hospital one day, Someone who I I don't know whether it was a doctor or whether it was just someone visiting the surgery, recognized him from YouTube, and they got talking and turned out this guy was kind of a A business coach and ended up doing, like, a free session with Ali. And part of the session, they they wrote kind of boxes on the page of the different segments of the production process. And the guy was like, where put put where you're currently spending most of your time as percentage. And sort of 70% was in editing, and he was and That was when Ali, I think, clicked in Ali's mind of, like, this is where I need to be reinvesting in the channel and freeing up my time because my time is worth more Than the time it's taking me to do this particular task. And so I think it was more that realization of the time sync in certain areas of the channel that made him realize Actually, outsourcing is something that I need to do rather than him getting to a point where he realized he literally couldn't do it because of burnout or anything like that And needing to outsource. So as I said, I think if if he was to go back and and start over again, hiring earlier would definitely be something that he would do, especially the editing side of things.

Angus Parker [00:07:23]:

It's always something that we we advise people do, because I think it is the biggest time sink, and it's the biggest area where someone with Decent editing skills and technical abilities can be far better than than you even if you think that your style's not replicable, which is the main excuse for people not outsourcing stuff.

Jay Clouse [00:07:40]:

I bring all this up because when you joined, you joined as a writer. Yep. And now you are, the right hand. You're, like, running the whole team the day to day. I I wanna hear your experience of when you stopped looking at this as I'm a writer to I'm growing into a bigger role. I'm thinking about the strategy of the company because, you know, you you said there was a there was a part time editor also. Like, who's to say that guy couldn't have stepped into that role early on? So there there's something that drove you to say, I'm going to be this this person.

Angus Parker [00:08:13]:

Yeah. I think there were kinda 2 2 moments I can kinda call to you. 1 was sort of midway through 2020, I. E, my 1st year when we were still a team of 4. I actually had two Offers to go and do master's degrees starting now September. In my mind, for, like, the 1st 6 months of 2020, I was still gonna probably go and do those, and this was like a stopgap job. But when Skillshare starts to take off and the company was growing, the channel was growing, and I was starting to kind of actually enjoy what I was doing with the editing and things, that was When I made decision, actually, this is a this is a long term thing, and I was committing to this. And then the second moment was probably after we had launched the Part Time Mutual Academy in November of that year, And that went very well.

Angus Parker [00:08:52]:

We realized that we needed to hire more people to be able to continue to run that academy as well as continue to put content out on the channel. And we made a decision to hire writers, I. E, to support the content production rather than support the production of the, YouTube Academy because myself and and Elizabeth, who was working fairly at the time, had Could handle that. And when they joined, there was a need for sort of some level of management to be able to then oversee what was then for other people aside from me and Ali. And so when I started you know, when I when I took that on, those management responsibilities on when Ali asked me to do that, That was probably the the 2nd moment when I thought, actually, this is, you know, this is a more managerial responsibility, more, A bigger role that I can step into and and and take forward.

Jay Clouse [00:09:38]:

Something that you said that may be obvious, but I wanna point out. You said there was a time when there were, you know, 4 other people besides Ollie, and there was this need for a manager. And when there's not a manager, By default, I would assume the creator, in this case, Ollie, is that manager Yep. Which is a huge Responsibility, time suck, and so the this is the point where I think a lot of people watching this may be at right now. Maybe they don't have four, part time or full time full time people, but they're probably overseeing multiple people and saying, I'm spending as much time managing as I am creating, which is a completely different skill set.

Angus Parker [00:10:19]:

For sure. And I think one thing which which Ali did Quite early on, which I think was was good, was he realized that he is not necessarily got the skill set to be a kind of full time manager. Not just not just the skill set, but I guess, you know, he doesn't wanna be a full time manager of people. But, fundamentally, his strengths lie in creating content. That's when he realized that She offloading that onto someone else and having someone in that sort of what we call the integrator position is actually really important for for creators, and I think it's something which is often overlooked by crisis having someone in that sort of right hand man slash, integrator slash kind of COO kind of role It's probably one of the most crucial roles that you could you could hide for after the editor in in my view. Ali kinda did it accidentally, but having someone Like myself, like someone who's can is happy to be a generalist and do multiple things and then step up into that role of just like COO and overseeing the expansion and building upon, the the current company size and hiring people, that kind of thing, is almost, like, key to successfully growing a company. A a a crazy company, I think, because Having that person that you can trust and to to run operations whilst you carry on creating, it's kind of really, really important. Otherwise, you will end up burning out and Not enjoying the pace of creating and, you know, burning out both literally and figuratively in terms of, like, the channel itself, will kind of eventually, died.

Angus Parker [00:11:41]:

And so yeah.

Jay Clouse [00:11:42]:

This is the thing, though. So creators are so skilled at upskilling, You know, you mentioned a couple times, like, it's it's an interest thing. I think there are creators who get to a point where it's not that you can't manage people. It's that Maybe you don't have the interest in managing people, and that's okay. Or, as you said, it comes at an opportunity cost, the cost of creating and doing these things. After a quick break, Angus and I talk about the 1st hires he would recommend creators make. So stick around, and we'll be right back. And now back to my conversation with Angus Parker.

Jay Clouse [00:12:18]:

You said a couple things that I wanna double click on to make sure I'm hearing right. Sound like you suggested the 1st hire for a lot of people is a video editor, and the 2nd hire is a general manager.

Angus Parker [00:12:27]:

Yeah. Some some nuance in terms

Jay Clouse [00:12:30]:

of strokes.

Angus Parker [00:12:30]:

Definitely for, like, YouTubers. Yes. Video I mean, I would suggest video editor is is the main hire. Exception being if video editing is your Your jam, and your, like, main thing and part of your channel is about video editing. But, in broad strokes, yes, video editor. And then I I wouldn't necessarily say general manager or hire it as a general manager. I would probably more say content manager to start with, but a content manager who you can test To be able to both write as well as project manage, I think, like, those are the 2 key qualities. And if you're a creator who's looking to both expand their Creative, content in terms of output, but also thinking about commercialization, having someone who can write and is capable of writing both Scripts as well as things like or at least some capabilities of writing copy and VSLs and things like that is also important.

Angus Parker [00:13:19]:

And this is like a difficult skill set to hire for, Definitely, but it's something which I think people should think about. And and often just enthusiasm and work ethic will get someone to a a a level which could serve a lot of graters. But I think too many people kind of try and hire specific roles at that stage, and I actually think you need someone and or a couple of people who are happy wearing off with different hats. As I mentioned at the start, that kind of stage of a creator's journey is very much startup mode where you need to be happy wearing multiple hats. And the only role which is really probably Pacific is the editor because that is a very technical scope.

Jay Clouse [00:13:53]:

You guys have a well known brand and platform, so I imagine maybe hiring doesn't get easier, but Getting interested talent probably gets a little bit easier. If I'm if I'm getting started and I want to hire, How do you recommend I go about finding talented people?

Angus Parker [00:14:08]:

I hate this question.

Jay Clouse [00:14:10]:

Yeah. That's really hard.

Angus Parker [00:14:11]:

Yeah. Yeah. No. It is. It it it genuinely is. Like, I I I hate but love it at the same time because it's a really interesting space. But I get this question a lot from Ali. We we have the, part time user accelerator, which is our kind of group of Students who are on a 12 month package, and I have office hours.

Angus Parker [00:14:25]:

And and often, I get this literally this question. And it it's difficult because we are in a privileged position whereby we can create job description, put On Out and Ice Twitter and Instagram, we get a lot of in inbound, but I can't recommend that to anyone else, obviously, because that we're we're very fortunate to have that. So I think this is where there's a there's a big problem at the moment in the creative space in that there is not a a A filtered and accurate and and and quality kind of job site, I don't think. We have YT jobs, which I think is It's good, and it's a good start, but I think there is still more to do on this on this side of things. I think YC jobs is a is really is really positive step in the right direction. I just think there is so much on there that it's quite difficult to filter through the the quality talent from the best quality talent And find those diamonds in the rough, and that can take time. So you've got YC jobs. You've got 5 people, people per hour.

Angus Parker [00:15:20]:

Like, all of these platforms are the ones that we generally sort of Recommend. And it and it is it is tricky. And I I know I'm not really answering your question, but it's it's really hard, because I just don't think The recruiting side of the creative space is quite caught up with where the demand is at the moment. Shall we say, like, job hunting platforms It's somewhat tricky because the creative space is still trying to, I think, trying to break into that more traditional job space, which does make it difficult to hire roles, which are not I I think, basically, are not video editing or potentially thumbnail design. A thumbnail design is coming on board, and script writing is somewhat getting there. But even then, it's still a relatively small pool of of of people who are really offering their best services just as a as scriptwriters. It is something which I recognize we're in a privileged position, and there is really a paucity of of of Sort of steps in quality, access to access to quality talent out there at the moment without going through and spending a lot of time on platforms like X, Twitter, which seems to be where there is a lot of talent, but you have to spend time finding it.

Jay Clouse [00:16:25]:

So when you are going to the hiring process, How do you hire? How do you think about screening this person judging for a good fit?

Angus Parker [00:16:33]:

So I think one of the mistakes we made initially was relying too much on the traditional approach of We want people's CVs. We want cover letters. We want, like, written answers to questions. I think we very quickly realized that CVs, Although helpful, I kind of don't really give us a full picture of of the person. And, essentially, we learned not to hire the CV, not to hire the And we didn't actually do that at all, but the the the mechanism that we've got now is that every single job description that we put out, people need to record a loom of some description, whether it's like a 2 minute introduction, whether it's the trial task is Elume. In some way, we need to have some level of interaction with them to know kind of who they are, what they're like, And that has helped speed up the application process immensely. It's it's impossible really to tell from purely text based, Applications, who someone is, what they're like, that kind of thing. Whereas a Loom and getting them on video and making sure they're comfortable on video, that kind of thing is Makes such a difference to has made such difference to our hiring process.

Angus Parker [00:17:30]:

And the second thing is getting a get having a trial task as well. I think it's Fairly relatively standard now for job applications to have trial tasks. And, again, that has helped speed up the process of of hiring immensely and helped us Spot quality talent far quicker than if we had sort of just been looking at CVs or resumes, just been looking at cover letters, and then gone out

Jay Clouse [00:17:50]:

with a trial task. One of

Angus Parker [00:17:52]:

the other things which I would just sort of mention for people kind of on the fence about hiring is that I think sometimes people build up hiring as something which is some big thing, which Needs a lot of thought and effort and decision and discussion, and it does to a certain extent. But if you're looking just to get someone on board to help with certain tasks that you haven't hired Before, you know, we still often rely on Google Forms just to create a simple Google Form with instructions for what the job will be, Video explaining what a job description will be, few questions, Loom video, trial task, and that's it. Like, 2 years ago, we used Workable, and we had, You know? Multiple different rounds of video based questions and just was a bit of a faff. And we realized that actually simplifying it and making it as easy as possible For for both us to put together, but also for applicants to or somewhat easy for applicants to apply, it's just sped things up.

Jay Clouse [00:18:44]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I find myself in this position of stretch where I'm starting to hire. I should probably hire more. I haven't hired anybody full time yet, But I'm recognizing that what I need more than anything is this, like, general manager role, a generalist who can also manage. But what what's been scary to this point has been, trust because this person is going to See everything. Need access to everything. Bank accounts, QuickBooks, Gusto to pay contractors, like, they're seeing and getting access to everything.

Jay Clouse [00:19:19]:

So can you talk a little bit about how trust is built in this position and how we should think about vetting somebody to be, this generalist, you know, number 2 type role.

Angus Parker [00:19:30]:

That's a really interesting question, because To a certain extent, the answer is trust is built, like, over time. Not necessarily something which can be given overnight. I think I was fortunate in that Ali He's generally quite a trusting person and probably at times overly trusting to be like, oh, yeah. Access here kind of thing. But I think it's it's built over time, but it's also built through You know, when I started with Ali, it was never full time to start with. It was, you know, what a pro is on a per project basis, so I started as a freelancer. And it was trust through delivery and reliability of the actual task I was set doing to start with, which was research and writing. Once I could do that, Then Ali was like, can you learn how to edit and edit this next video for me? And I was like, okay.

Angus Parker [00:20:15]:

And so delivery on things like that and stepping up to the plate and kind of having that Enthusiasm and commitment to what that person is doing, and I think that's relatively straightforward for a creator to spot. I think it's it's clear to see when someone is Committed to what you're creating, and you can kind of rely on them. Hiring people and making sure that you trust them enough to be able to give them quick access is Part of, I think, the the growth journey, of of of growing as a creator, and and being able to trust employees when as you bring them on.

Jay Clouse [00:20:46]:

And what I'm not hearing you say, but I'm not saying you're not saying this is important, but, you know, sometimes I ask myself, well, if If I'm gonna give this type of access to things, do they need to be full time employees? Do I need to have, like, an ironclad contract to secure myself and credentials and access these things. How do you think about the level of trust that comes with, like, intellectual property or security stuff?

Angus Parker [00:21:12]:

I think definitely having people on full time contracts will definitely allow you to protect yourself far more than just having you know, giving access to freelancers. You know, for for us, the only we we don't even give access to, like, YouTube Studio to, you know, random freelancers. They have to be on a contract, and and it's things like that. So The contract definitely does help. You could firm that up even further with, NDAs and other such other such, documents. We don't generally do that unless we are sort of creating a product that is yet to be released or announced and that kind of thing. But I think you're on a kind of more broader level. Even with that level of protection, There is a degree to which you just need to build up that sort of subjective quality of trust with someone over time, and that that comes through, as I said, like, just Being able to trust and to deliver fundamentally on their work to start with, I think that is the that is, like, the baseline.

Angus Parker [00:22:02]:

And then from there, it you you should be able to Give over more of of of your whatever it is you you happen to be wanting to give to them and give access to.

Jay Clouse [00:22:12]:

So I'm watching this. I'm a creator. I'm feeling stretched. I wanna make my 1st hire. Maybe it's a video editor. Maybe it's a a GM style person. How do I think about hiring full time versus part time? What type of litmus test do you use for that?

Angus Parker [00:22:25]:

It really does depend on kind of what the role is. I think one of the one of the key books that that we used when When we were initially starting to go through the rounds of hiring was a book called the WHO Method For Hiring. And one of the things that They say in that it's like the first point of failure of hiring is not actually defining what you want from that position. And so having an idea of, like, what is The mission, the outcomes, and the competencies that you want from a role. And only then thinking about, okay. With this outlined, is this a full time role, or is this a part time role? Then I think I would go to the question of, do I wanna bring someone on full time as, like, a full time employee, or do I wanna just bring them on as a contractor to start with? And my recommendation would be Either you have them on a probation period if you are gonna bring them on full time or have them on my recommendation would be have them as a contractor for a month And see whether they perform. If not, you know, cut ways. And if they do, bring them on more.

Angus Parker [00:23:18]:

I think definitely one of the things that that that we've learned for sure is To test a in a freelance or contract to go for capacity first before you bring people on full time. We never necessarily had a problem with that per se, but It just gives you so much more sort of bandwidth to be able to be like, okay. Is this person the right fit? Is this actually the right role that we need in this month long period that we're having kind of trialing this person? I've actually realized, ah, shit. You know, this was the wrong the wrong role. I actually should have hired for another role. And I think the other thing there is A lot I see a lot of creators go down the route of I'll hire a scriptwriter and a video editor and a thumbnail designer and a the issue with that For me is is that people end up spending a lot of time managing freelancers and managing multiple different people. Not necessarily a problem, but You are then in project management mode and reducing the time that you can create. Mhmm.

Angus Parker [00:24:09]:

And so that's why, again, I would suggest having someone someone else do that management, someone else Find the the title and thumbnail designers, the the scriptwriters if you are gonna outsource all of that. Because otherwise, you do end up just living your life in Notion or in Kanban boards wherever, just managing projects, and that's not what Crayta should be doing.

Jay Clouse [00:24:28]:

Yeah. That's that's a really good articulation that I haven't thought about before because I'm exactly here. I have hired really great functional, people to do specific things, but I'm managing everything. And so now that I'm managing everything, the the pull is to hire a manager. But now I'm also going to have to train that manager on everything to manage the the individual specialist. Whereas, if I would've hired a generalist, they would have learned it. They would be hiring and training the specialist, and they would not need trained because they basically would have learned on the job. That's that's an interesting different way of going about it.

Angus Parker [00:25:08]:

The other kind of key point to this is the kind of SOP SOPification of everything, and having operating procedures and things like that to make that training a lot lot simpler. Part of the thing with with Ali and I is I've been working Friday for, like, 4 years now, and I've kind of grown with the team. And so I haven't needed to sort of come on him, train me because we've kind of been learning and training alongside each other, I guess. But I think if someone is bringing someone on, having those things written down and documented, although it might be really dull to create initially, We'll save so much time in the long run. I think it's then thinking about, okay, how can I make the training of this so straightforward and easy? And And then you can use that training as a way to measure capabilities because if someone comes on and can't follow your instructions, if you think they're simple enough and and easy enough to follow, then That's a good flag for them maybe not being the right person.

Jay Clouse [00:25:56]:

When we come back, we talk about incentivizing your people, and Angus shares a hot take about what he sees happening in the next few years. So don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. And now please enjoy the rest of my conversation with Angus Parker. Let's say that I did successfully hire or nurtured someone into being a really great team member. How do I keep them Interested, happy, enjoying working with me versus going off to some new opportunity because other people also recognize, oh, wow, this person is talented and doing really great work. Let's try to hire them.

Angus Parker [00:26:32]:

Yeah. I think it's it's a combination of having a very open and transparent culture for us as well as Appropriate incentivization. We have a I think we have a very competitive base salary for our employees, but we also have a A number of benefits on on top of that. Obviously, in traditional, like, units, just health insurance and things like that, but also we run we have a 9 day fortnight. So every other week, People get Fridays off. We have and I know before anyone starts saying it. We have unlimited leave, and I know there's a lot of issues around that. People it's a very controversial topic for People some people say, actually, the results of people taking less leave, etcetera, etcetera.

Angus Parker [00:27:09]:

So and, obviously, now we are fully remote. There's People can work from literally anywhere. And so we do have a lot of benefits, and I I think it's it there's partly the incentivization side of things like that. But, also, it's it's the culture and the the, values that you embody as a team as well, which I think are almost more important to keeping people on. Because if you're having to rely on financial rewards or incentives too much to keep people engaged in, like, what you're trying to achieve, I don't think that's a good place to be personally because then you are always constantly trying to compete with others purely based on price. And if you can compete with others In the same way in a kind of commercial sense, compete with others based on, like, value that you're providing as well as value that you're that you the feel that people feel as part part of the company, Then that's a better place to be.

Jay Clouse [00:27:58]:

It's interesting. You you said that you have a flat compensation model for the core team. And I've I've heard you share on the Passion Fruit podcast as well that you guys, at least at one point, had some sort of, Like, bonus incentive that is also Yes. Relatively flat. Is that is that still a thing?

Angus Parker [00:28:15]:

Yep. Yep. Still a thing. Ali and I spent a lot of time thinking about how can we reward Performance, and, reward, you know, whether through incentive bonuses or or whatever. Like, we went back and forth on a lot of different ideas and models, And we settled on one that was essentially completely flat, in the sense of what we have is that over and above a certain threshold of operating profit, The percentage of of that extra money is split, flat across the team, so pro rata across the team. So anyone who's a full time employee will get and he's worked for the whole year will get exactly the same amount, And we still have that. And what we found is that that kind of does engender everyone to sort of pull together, in a More collective way, it doesn't encourage sort of individual incentives to outperform one another or prioritize some one person's actions over another person's actions. You You know, a lot of people end up helping each other, and one of our core values is is be a team player.

Angus Parker [00:29:11]:

It has actually, I've noticed, helped, bring people closer together. And I think We we haven't had a comparative period where we've had the opposite, where we've rewarded people purely based on Individual performance, and so I can't compare it to anything. However, I would imagine that even if it was sort of subconscious and somewhat Subtle. There would be a shift in motives and attitudes on certain things if we had a more kind of individual based approach to bonuses.

Jay Clouse [00:29:44]:

That's incredible. Well, this one major question I think people have around businesses like this is, How do you incentivize or name it incentivize. How do you make people happy and motivated operating behind the name of another individual? How do you guys how do you guys think about that? Does it come down to the hiring process? Because some people who themselves might fancy being in front of camera, I would imagine might have a hard time doing that.

Angus Parker [00:30:15]:

I think it does come down to the hiring process because it it depends on who the individual is. Like, I couldn't imagine anything worse Than doing what Ali does.

Jay Clouse [00:30:22]:

Yeah. You're doing it right now. I'm sorry you're having such a

Angus Parker [00:30:24]:

bad time. I know. I am. Yeah. Bad time to say that. No. But, I I'm I'm happy doing interviews, and I'm happy doing doing what appears to be an audio podcast, but I know it's a video as well. But no.

Angus Parker [00:30:35]:

I I I couldn't, like, I'm not necessarily Interested in building out a personal brand that has, like, a face to it that, you know, is is purely engaged in creating video based content every single week. And so I think it's I've certainly noticed when when doing hires and things like that, when there are people who are like, oh, I wanna join the company because I want to know and get experience of how to grow, my own channel. And I'm like, well, probably not gonna be a fit then because that's not kind of the point. We want people who are Good at what they do and, are keen to help grow the brand and the business independent of their own pursuits. Like, we have people in the company who have their own YouTube channels who have their own personal project stuff. But, fundamentally, no one in the company, In my opinion, is not bought into sort of growing Ali's brand and is not bothered by the fact that it's growing someone else's brand.

Jay Clouse [00:31:30]:

I've heard Mister Beast talk about his attempts to hire from traditional media, people who have, like, traditional entertainment and media backgrounds. Have you guys looked at that or tried that at all?

Angus Parker [00:31:41]:

We've had coaching from various people who are from more traditional backgrounds and and that kind of thing, and there's definitely stuff that we have taken from the traditional world into our own business. You know, Trak Traction, the book by Gina Whitman's probably the one that shaped the our company and growth more than any other, and that's Fundamentally built off more traditional companies and structures and that kind of thing. And so there's definitely lessons that we can learn from it, but I do think if Someone who has had exposure and experience to the traditional world for years, decades, it's harder to move into the creative space. I don't think it's not it's impossible necessarily. I think it would be harder for both the creator to work with the traditional birch black person and the traditional person to work with a creator. So I think, yeah, the the less developed the businesses, I think the higher higher it is. But that being said, you know, even mister Beast, who probably has one of the most developed businesses in the creative space, Struggle to do it as well. So I I do think there is something there which doesn't quite always work.

Jay Clouse [00:32:38]:

Is there is there something that you believe to be true, but you don't yet have data to support it.

Angus Parker [00:32:43]:

I think that agencies will struggle over the next 5 to 10 years.

Jay Clouse [00:32:48]:

Oh, let's hear it. Love that.

Angus Parker [00:32:49]:

I just think and I I get the sense, and and this might be strongly influenced by the fact that we bought some of our sponsorship stuff in house I've realized the benefit of doing that, but I think incentives are never truly aligned When creators and and agencies work together and I know that there's a lot of creators who work with very good agencies, so a lot of very good agencies out there are not having a go at agencies necessarily. However, I think potentially over the next 10 5, 10 years as creators realize that they're the ones with more Power and control, and they have the ability to, you know, control their own outcomes and their own destinies. And as they get better at hiring, and bring on more team members, They realize that actually having an agency handle a lot of stuff whilst it can help Ameliorate issues and speed things up, and agencies obviously have contacts and that kind of thing. They do lose control, and, fundamentally, agencies are Businesses fundamental at the end of the day, like, they need to be concerned about their own profits and their own revenues and things like that. So I I don't necessarily hold it against them that they have different incentives to the creators, but they're always gonna prioritize those over and above the creator's needs at some point. Some might do it earlier than others, but they still will. And I just have a hunch that creators might start to Realized that a bit more and tried to go more direct to brands. I might be wrong.

Angus Parker [00:34:15]:

I could've said that 10 years ago potentially, but that's kind of my vaguely vaguely lukewarm